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1
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No one clips a podcast. Like no one. No one clips an audio podcast. No one goes like, oh, this clip.
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trevor
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No one clips a podcast. Like no one. No one clips an audio podcast. No one goes like, oh, this clip.
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2
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No, I think they were enders. And I think enders still exist, funny enough.
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trevor
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No, I think they were enders. And I think enders still exist, funny enough.
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3
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I genuinely do. I genuinely think there still are enders. Yeah.
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trevor
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I genuinely do. I genuinely think there still are enders. Yeah.
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4
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Or the other. I think they exist for everyone except Donald Trump. Yeah.
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trevor
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Or the other. I think they exist for everyone except Donald Trump. Yeah.
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5
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And I think it's because he's approached this whole thing in the same way that a wrestler does, in that, like, the whole point is to be the foil, the whole point is to be, you know what I mean?
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trevor
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And I think it's because he's approached this whole thing in the same way that a wrestler does, in that, like, the whole point is to be the foil, the whole point is to be, you know what I mean?
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6
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It's like it's if somebody's playing the game by different rules, then the rules that we normally use don't apply to them.
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trevor
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It's like it's if somebody's playing the game by different rules, then the rules that we normally use don't apply to them.
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7
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So you go like, oh, that's how you get disqualified normally.
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trevor
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So you go like, oh, that's how you get disqualified normally.
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8
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He can't get disqualified because he's not playing the game by the same rules.
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trevor
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He can't get disqualified because he's not playing the game by the same rules.
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9
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Yeah, you know, that'd be a wonder for him. He created something new and no one has figured out how to respond to the new that he created.
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trevor
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Yeah, you know, that'd be a wonder for him. He created something new and no one has figured out how to respond to the new that he created.
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10
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Do you know what I mean? Like the mechanism that was set up to deal with the news wasn't, like, in a weird way, I feel like.
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trevor
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Do you know what I mean? Like the mechanism that was set up to deal with the news wasn't, like, in a weird way, I feel like.
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11
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The way we think of news is designed perfectly for how news was. It has a certain level of decorum.
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trevor
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The way we think of news is designed perfectly for how news was. It has a certain level of decorum.
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12
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An interesting and and and um complicated position now in in the news in that like, you know, you're with the New York Times, but an opinion.
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trevor
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An interesting and um complicated position now in the news in that like, you know, you're with the New York Times, but an opinion.
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13
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You know, and I thought to myself, I was like, Before we get into the heavy topics, because I mean, Ezra Klein, you deal with everything. I was like, I was like, let's do something light.
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trevor
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You know, and I thought to myself, I was like, Before we get into the heavy topics, because I mean, Ezra Klein, you deal with everything. I was like, I was like, let's do something light.
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14
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What is your opinion on what's happening in the world right now?
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trevor
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What is your opinion on what's happening in the world right now?
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15
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Against. But no, no, okay. No, jokes aside, like when you wake up every day. And I love asking people who work in the news this question particularly because I find.
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trevor
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Against. Uh, but no, no, okay. No, jokes aside, what what would what would like when you wake up every day? And I I love asking people who work in the news this question particularly because I find.
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16
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People who work in the news are sometimes like people who work in an emergency room, in that they have a very different idea of July 4th than the people who are out celebrating it. Do you get what I'm saying?
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trevor
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People who work in the news are sometimes like people who work in an emergency room, in that they have a very different idea of July 4th than the people who are out celebrating it. Do you get what I'm saying?
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17
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Because they see the fire, the fire marks and the burns that people come in with. And so I wonder, like, how you feel about this moment in time. Is it as bad as some people feel?
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trevor
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Because they see the fire, the fire marks and the burns that people come in with. And so I wonder, like, how you feel about this moment in time. Is it as bad as some people feel?
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18
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You, as somebody from the inside, do you feel like it is, you know, a DEF CON one?
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trevor
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You, as somebody from the inside, do you feel like it is, you know, a DEF CON one?
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19
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is pretty bad. Now I think it's more 50-50 or worse. It's funny. When I first started at the Daily Show, I was thrust into this world of American politics and it was politics the way it was.
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trevor
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is pretty bad. Now I think it's more 50-50 or worse. It's funny. When I first started at the Daily Show, I was thrust into this world of American politics and it was politics the way it was.
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20
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they call it the, what was it, summer madness? Or it had like a name in the media world, you know, where people go like, those candidates don't count. They're not going to be around.
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trevor
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They call it the, what was it, summer madness? Or it had like a name in the media world, you know, where people go like, those candidates don't count. They're not going to be around.
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21
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Silly summer, I think is what they said. Yeah, they said silly summer. So all of these people you see popping up, they're not Ben Carson, Donald Trump, all of that. That's not going to be a thing.
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trevor
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Silly summer, I think is what they said. Yeah, they said silly summer. So all of these people you see popping up, they're not Ben Carson, Donald Trump, all of that. That's not going to be a thing.
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22
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Oh no, we're going to find optimism. We're going to find optimism, my friend. I always think optimism.
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trevor
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Oh no, we're going to find optimism. We're going to find optimism, my friend. Um, I always think optimism.
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23
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Uh is only defined by, you know, the time scale you use it.
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trevor
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Uh is only defined by, you know, the time scale you use it.
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24
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Yeah, 100 years, things get much better. 1,000 years, million years. Did we even matter?
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trevor
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Yeah, 100 years, things get much better. 1,000 years, million years. Uh, did we even matter?
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25
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I like the assumption that people think that the AIs will want the same things we want if they get as intelligent as they do. But we'll actually talk about AI because I loved your piece on it.
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trevor
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I like the assumption that people think that the AIs will want the same things we want if they get as intelligent as they do. But we'll actually talk about AI because I loved your piece on it.
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26
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I want to talk about you as Ezra Klein because, you know,
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trevor
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I want to talk about you as Ezra Klein because, you know,
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27
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there's a song in the musical Hamilton, right? I think it's Aaron Burr's character. Forgive me if I get any of these people wrong. I just remember the songs and I remembered liking it. And he has the song, The Room Where It Happens.
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trevor
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there's a song in the musical Hamilton, right? I think it's Aaron Burr's character. Forgive me if I get any of these people wrong. I just remember the songs and I remembered liking it. And he has the song, The Room Where It Happens.
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28
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And all he's singing about in the song is he goes, I just want to be in the room where it happens,
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trevor
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And all he's singing about in the song is he goes, I just want to be in the room where it happens,
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29
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where the rules are written, where the constitution is made, where countries are defined, where he's like, I don't even, it's an interesting song because it's a person saying, I don't even care to necessarily do it.
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trevor
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where the rules are written, where the constitution is made, where countries are defined, where where he's like, I don't even, it's an interesting song because it's a person saying, I don't even care to necessarily do it.
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30
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But man, I want to be in that room where it happens.
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trevor
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But man, I want to be in that room where it happens.
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31
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And all I could think about for this episode was: that's Ezra Klein.
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trevor
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And all I could think about for this episode was: that's Ezra Klein.
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32
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That I just want to be in the room where it happens. No, no, no, that you are in the room where it happens. Not that you want to be, because I went, look at this Venn diagram, right?
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trevor
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That I just want to be in the room where it happens. No, no, no, that you are in the room where it happens. Not that you want to be, because I went, look at this Venn diagram, right?
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33
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For anyone who's like tuning in, going like, okay, Trevor, what's your fascination with Ezra Klein? I go, okay, how about this?
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trevor
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For anyone who's like tuning in, going like, okay, Trevor, what's your fascination with Ezra Klein? I go, okay, how about this?
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34
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You've got Vox that reshaped how many people saw news, especially young people.
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trevor
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You've got Vox that reshaped how many people saw news, especially young people.
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35
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Now working at the New York Times, curating, shaping the opinion section, working on the podcast, doing journalistic work that sort of like branches out what the New York Times does. So you've got the news element, journalism.
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trevor
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Now working at the New York Times, you know, curating, shaping the opinion section, working on the podcast, you know, like doing journalistic work that sort of like branches out what the New York Times does. So you've got the news element, journalism.
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36
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Then you've got the writing, the investigating, the campaigning for certain ideas in the world. So like shaping what the world is thinking.
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trevor
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Then you've got the writing, the investigating, the campaigning for certain ideas in the world. So like shaping what the world is thinking.
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37
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Then you've got another little circle, and that is the politics itself.
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trevor
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Then you've got another little circle, and that is the politics itself.
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38
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The amount of times I've heard a person who is either a Democrat in power or somebody who's adjacent to them saying,
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trevor
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The amount of times I've heard a person who is either a Democrat in power or somebody who's adjacent to them saying,
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39
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well, we're going to reach out to Ezra Klein or Ezra Klein hopefully will in some way, shape, or form, your name is there. And I was like, wow, the politicians are even looking to this guy.
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trevor
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Well, we're going to reach out to Ezra Klein or Ezra Klein hopefully will in some way, shape, or form, your name is in there. And I was like, wow, the politicians are even looking to this guy.
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40
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And then you're in like this world. I see you on podcasts. I see you talking to like everyday people. I go, this is the perfect Venn diagram of the room where it happens. Do you feel like that about yourself?
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trevor
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And then you're in like this world. I see you on podcasts. I see you talking to like everyday people. I go, this is the perfect Venn diagram of the room where it happens. Do you feel like that about yourself?
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41
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But here's the thing I think you may be missing is oftentimes the people in the room don't know that they're in the room.
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trevor
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But here's the thing I think you may be missing is oftentimes the people in the room don't know that they're in the room.
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42
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We call it the room where it happened or we think about it like that because whatever happened has now had an effect on society. That's when that room has an importance. You with me?
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trevor
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We call it the room where it happened, or we think about it like that, because whatever happened has now had an effect on society. That's when that room has an importance. You with me?
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43
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So when you think about that hotel room where, you know, it's like Harry Belafonte meeting with MLK and meeting with, like that room becomes something because of what came from it. Before then, it's just a hotel room. Yeah.
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trevor
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So when you think about that hotel room where, you know, it's like Harry Belafonte meeting with MLK and meeting with, like that room becomes something because of what came from it. Before then, it's just a hotel room. Yeah.
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44
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No one in that room walked in and went, this is the room where it happens. Do you get what I'm saying?
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trevor
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No one in that room walked in and went, this is the room where it happens. Do you get what I'm saying?
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45
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Yeah, and so this is what I'm saying fascinates me about you. And even you giving me that answer makes me more excited to talk to you about it because I go.
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trevor
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Yeah, and so this is what I'm saying fascinates me about you. And even you giving me that answer makes me more excited to talk to you about it because I go.
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46
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Let's go on a journey together then. Let's go on a journey. Let's stop this journey because I want to build all these pieces together. You got Ezra Klein.
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trevor
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Let's go on a journey together then. Let's go on a journey. Let's stop this journey because I want to build all these pieces together, right? You got Ezra Klein.
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47
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who gets into um campaigning was really like your first foray into the world of politics, right?
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trevor
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who gets into um campaigning was really like your first foray into the world of politics, right?
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48
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No, no, but before like never before that. Uh w weren't you with um
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trevor
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No, no, but before, never before that. Uh, weren't you with um
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49
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What was it about your writing that got somebody who was running a presidential campaign to say, yo,
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trevor
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What was it about your writing that got somebody who was running a presidential campaign to say, yo,
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50
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They were ahead of the curve. Yeah, they were ahead of the curve. So I mean, like, blogs then are basically the inception of the idea of podcasts now.
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trevor
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They were ahead of the curve. Yeah, they were ahead of the curve. So I mean, like, blogs then are basically the inception of the idea of podcasts now.
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51
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If you look at each election, there's a new type of media that sort of has its imprint on them. And blogs are, you know, this is like the flag in the world of blogs.
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trevor
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If you look at each election, there's a new type of media that sort of has its imprint on them. And blogs are, you know, this is like the fledgling world of blogs.
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52
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And you get called in and you interning on this campaign. What was it like?
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trevor
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And you get called in, and you're interning on this campaign. What was it like?
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53
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I mean, for those who don't know, like how Dean was basically, he's like the favorites.
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trevor
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I mean, for those who don't know, like how Dean was basically, he's like the favorites.
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54
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Like, no, no, no, but there was a moment where it was like, this is the guy he's going to do. Yeah, in the primary. You're like, oh man, this guy's going to do it. Yeah. This guy's going to do it.
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trevor
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Like, no, but there was a moment where it was like, this is the guy. He's going to do it. Yeah, in the primary. You're like, oh man, this guy's going to do it. Yeah. This guy's going to do it.
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55
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And then I still don't fully understand the story. He went, oh yeah, like the Kool-Aid man or something.
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trevor
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And then I still don't fully understand the story. He went, oh yeah, like the Kool-Aid man or something.
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56
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No, you see I I love it because remember I'm building a case here.
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trevor
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No, you see I I love it because remember I'm building a case here.
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57
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the room where it happens. Because just in that story for me alone, you're in a moment in time that I think goes on to define something.
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trevor
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the room where it happens. Because just in that story for me alone, you're in a moment in time that I think goes on to define something.
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58
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That's what got him. And what sticks to me, or what sticks out in people bringing that up is that it created this idea that you had to be perceived a certain way in order to win an election.
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trevor
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That's what got him. And what sticks to me, or what sticks out in people bringing that up is that it created this idea that you had to be perceived a certain way in order to win an election.
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59
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So many people took the cautionary tale away from the story.
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trevor
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So many people took the cautionary tale away from the story.
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60
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They didn't talk about not winning Iowa. They said, no, you have to be prim, you have to be proper, you have to make sure everything you do is right, because if you scream or yelp in the wrong way, it's over for you.
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trevor
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They didn't talk about not winning Iowa. They said, no, you have to be prim, you have to be proper, you have to make sure everything you do is right, because if you scream or yelp in the wrong way, it's over for you.
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61
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No, so, okay, so you work in this world, you realize you don't want to work in politics because you don't want to toe a line. And so you get dragged into journalism, right? Like this, you get pulled into this world of journalism.
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trevor
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No, so, okay, so you work in this world, you realize you don't want to work in politics because you don't want to toe a line. And so you get dragged into journalism, right? Like this, you get pulled into this world of journalism.
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62
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What they saw in you that you didn't see, and what still keeps you going in that world today, because you're very good at it. That's the thing.
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trevor
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What they saw in you that you didn't see, and what still keeps you going in that world today, because you're very good at it. That's the thing.
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63
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Those races involve Vox. I have a deep personal fascination with Vox because for a few reasons.
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trevor
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Those races involve Vox. I have a deep personal fascination with Vox because for a few reasons.
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64
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One, I was starting at the daily show. It's 2015 into 2016. First John was still the host and I was popping in and doing segments. 2016, I became the host of the daily show, you know, frying pan into the fire.
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trevor
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One, I was starting at The Daily Show. It's 2015 into 2016. Jon was still the host and I was popping in and doing segments. 2016, I became the host of The Daily Show, you know, frying pan into the fire.
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65
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2015 into 2016 is also a time when you know America is heading into an election.
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trevor
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2015 into 2016 is also a time when you know America's heading into an election.
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66
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The Republican field. I don't want to spoil it. You've got to watch it. Watch it. No spoilers. The Republican field is bigger and crazier than it's ever been. You know, people are like, what is this Democratic side of things?
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trevor
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The Republican field. I don't want to spoil it. You've got to watch it. No spoilers. The Republican field is bigger and crazier than it's ever been. You know, people are like, what is this Democratic side of things?
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67
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And everything seems a little crazier than usual. But from my recollection, most people believed that this was a blip and the norm would be established. And that norm was Hillary Clinton would win because she seemed like the most winnable, you know, candidate.
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trevor
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And everything seems a little crazier than usual. But from my recollection, most people believed that this was a blip and the norm would be established. And that norm was Hillary Clinton would win because she seemed like the most winnable, you know, candidate.
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68
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It's like, this is the winning person. And the Republican side seemed like a joke for the most part. It was crazy. There were too many people. And, you know, this is all happening.
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trevor
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It's like, this is the winning person. And the Republican side seemed like a joke for the most part. It was crazy. There were too many people. And, you know, this is all happening.
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69
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I'm now trying to consume as much news as possible to catch up so I can be in this world of American news.
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trevor
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I'm now trying to consume as much news as possible to catch up so I can be in this world of American, you know, news.
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70
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I realized very quickly that a lot of the people in the news in America either don't understand it or like in and around politics, they don't understand it, or they don't know how to explain it.
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trevor
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I realized very quickly that a lot of the people in the news in America either don't understand it or like in and around politics, they don't understand it, or they don't know how to explain it.
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71
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And then I stumble upon this website called Vox. And not only is it telling you the news, it's breaking it down. It's explaining it. You know, it's like, oh, let me tell you, this is what gerrymandering is.
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trevor
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And then I stumble upon this website called Vox. And not only is it telling you the news, it's breaking it down. It's explaining it. You know, it's like, oh, let me tell you, this is what gerrymandering is.
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72
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Trevor, you're warming my cold. No, I'm being serious. I'm being serious. And I think there are a lot of people who are my age or younger especially who went, oh, now I not only understand this, but I know why I should care.
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trevor
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Trevor, you're warming my cold. No, I'm being serious. And I think there are a lot of people who are my age or younger especially who went, oh, now I not only understand this, but I know why I should care.
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73
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And I wonder if if you felt that, like when you were doing your work at Vox, did you feel like you were trying to fix something that was wrong with journalism at that time in that like journalism had become an insider's game?
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trevor
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And I wonder if you felt that, like when you were doing your work at Vox, did you feel like you were trying to fix something that was wrong with journalism at that time in that like journalism had become an insider's game?
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74
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Politics had become an insider's game. And for the first time, for me at least, when I was watching Vox, and I think a lot of people were interacting with it, they went, oh no, this is me.
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trevor
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Politics had become an insider's game. And for the first time, for me at least, when I was watching Vox, and I think a lot of people were interacting with it, they went, oh no, this is me.
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75
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Politic, like the Greek word, it is of the people. I'm the people.
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trevor
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Politic, like the Greek word, it is of the people. I'm the people.
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76
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I think beyond that though, there was something you were doing that was addressing a need that had arisen because of what had happened in America. And in many places in the world, I think we're seeing it as well.
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trevor
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I think beyond that though, there was something you were doing that was addressing a need that had arisen because of what had happened in America. And in many places in the world, I think we're seeing it as well.
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77
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I think as communities have gone down, as people spend less time in community, like community halls, community gatherings, town council meetings, when you look at how ubiquitous and omnipresent those things were in people's lives,
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trevor
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I think as communities have gone down, as people spend less time in community, like community halls, community, you know, gatherings at town council meetings, when you look at how ubiquitous and omnipresent those things were in people's lives,
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78
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And you see them diminish over time in America and around the world.
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trevor
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And you see them diminish over time in America and around the world.
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79
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It's interesting when you watch like old, I'm sure you've seen a bunch of them pictures or when there were videos, people would be at a town hall meeting like in a big way.
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trevor
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It's interesting when you watch like old, I'm sure you've seen a bunch of them pictures or when there were videos, people would be at a town hall meeting like in a big way.
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80
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There are still a few in small parts of America here and there, but I don't think it is where it used to be. And in those, there would be a lot of discussing. What does that mean?
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trevor
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There are still a few in small parts of America here and there, but I don't think it is where it used to be. And in those, there would be a lot of discussing. What does that mean?
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81
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They said they're going to build a highway, but my house is there.
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trevor
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They said they're going to build a highway, but my house is there.
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82
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What is that? What is eminent domain? And someone would have to explain it. And someone would get into the details of what the law was, or the idea was, or the politics were.
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trevor
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What is that? What is eminent domain? And someone would have to explain it. And someone would get into the details of what the law was, or the idea was, or the politics were.
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83
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Once that went away, no one thought to themselves that people's ability to dissect, process, and then respond to the news is directly related to how much information they have about what the news is reporting.
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trevor
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Once that went away, no one thought to themselves that people's ability to dissect, process, and then respond to the news is directly related to how much information they have about what the news is reporting.
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84
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Cause they went, hey man, maybe you didn't see the previous episode or maybe you forgot it.
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trevor
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Cause they went, hey man, maybe you didn't see the previous episode or maybe you forgot it.
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85
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And if you think about it, it's like they spent so much time focusing on something so stupid. Who cares if you know what happened in the previous episode?
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trevor
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And if you think about it, it's like they spent so much time focusing on something so stupid. Who cares if you know what happened in the previous episode?
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86
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But they were like, no, we need you to. And I was always fascinated that the news sort of didn't do that.
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trevor
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But they were like, no, we need you to. And I was always fascinated that the news sort of didn't do that.
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87
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The news wasn't saying previously on. It would just tell you, this happened today. The Democrats did this. The Republicans did this. This person did that. That person said this. But you'd go, but how do we get here?
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trevor
|
The news wasn't saying previously on. It would just tell you, this happened today. The Democrats did this. The Republicans did this. This person did that. That person said this. But you'd go, but how do we get here?
|
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88
|
And that's what I feel you tapped into. That's what I feel like you and your colleagues worked on: creating the context that the news relies on without realizing it. Does that make sense?
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trevor
|
And that's what I feel you tapped into. That's what I feel like you and your colleagues worked on was creating the context that the news relies on without realizing it. Does that make sense?
|
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89
|
Why do you think the media is so bad at looking at itself when it's so good at looking at everything else?
|
trevor
|
Why do you think the media is so bad at looking at itself when it's so good at looking at everything else?
|
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90
|
You know, like I've always been intrigued by this, like why every interview with New York Times, Washington Post, they seemed like they were the slowest to adapt to where the world was moving while they were reporting on the world moving.
|
trevor
|
You know, like I've always been intrigued by this, like why every institution with New York Times, Washington Post, they seemed like they were the slowest to adapt to where the world was moving while they were reporting on the world moving.
|
|
91
|
You know, they would be writing articles about how everything's becoming digital, but they weren't becoming digital. They would be covering stories about how people are watching less TV on TV, but TV wouldn't think about what the next step should be beyond TV.
|
trevor
|
You know, they would be writing articles about how everything's becoming digital, but they weren't becoming digital. They would be covering stories about how people are watching less TV on TV, but TV wouldn't think about what the next step should be beyond TV.
|
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92
|
It's the most observant space to be in. And yet
|
trevor
|
It's the most observant space to be in. And yet
|
|
93
|
You bring up two points that I think a lot of people would be interested in because we think about it and we speak about it all the time.
|
trevor
|
You bring up two points that I think a lot of people would be interested in because we think about it and we speak about it all the time.
|
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94
|
One is who tells the news slash who is who has the right to tell the news. And then the other part of it is, has the news ever been fixed?
|
trevor
|
One is who tells the news, slash who has the right to tell the news. And then the other part of it is, has the news ever been fixed?
|
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95
|
You know, like people now will say, they'll go, oh man, I don't trust the news anymore. The news is broken, man. I don't know you, you know,
|
trevor
|
You know, like people now will say, they'll go, oh man, I don't trust the news anymore. The news is broken, man. I don't know, you, you know,
|
|
96
|
and then a lot of older people will be like, you know, back in my day, you could trust the news. You knew that the news was, you know, but now these days you don't know. Back in the day.
|
trevor
|
and then a lot of older people will be like, you know, back in my day, you could trust the news. You knew that the news was, you know, but now these days you don't know. Back in the day.
|
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97
|
I mean, if I'm listening to what you're saying, really all that happened is they might have moved further away from that central sort of hub of where the news was. They moved further away from the shoe store.
|
trevor
|
I mean, if I'm listening to what you're saying, really all that happened is they might have moved further away from that central sort of hub of where the news was. They moved further away from the shoe store.
|
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98
|
So now the news is not sort of for them anymore. And so maybe if we look at both of these, like how do you process that as a journalist?
|
trevor
|
So now the news is not sort of for them anymore. And so maybe if we look at both of these, like how do you process that as a journalist?
|
|
99
|
Like on the one hand, has the news ever been fixed? You know, because like black people in America and in many countries would go like, oh, which news?
|
trevor
|
Like on the one hand, has the news ever been fixed? You know, because like black people in America and in many countries would go like, oh, which news?
|
|
100
|
The news took a while to get around to our stories. Women might say the same thing. Which news? The news took a while. People in other countries might go like, oh, you, Americans, you, your news?
|
trevor
|
The news took a while to get around to our stories. Women might say the same thing. Which news? The news took a while. People in other countries might go like, oh, you, Americans, you, your news?
|
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